Make your own free website on Tripod.com

Psychedelicatessen

Topic: More Theories



Date: 05/23/01 01:26:50 PM

Subject: Re: Theory Poll - My thoughts

**And why was the edit BETWEEN verses so sloppy but the edits WITHIN each verse are so clean?? **

Maybe because:

1. Brian hadn't decided how how long he wanted the pause between verses to be, or

2. He wanted to overlap/segue the last "bicycle rider" chord with the beginning of the next verse. The would have required putting the sections on separate tracks of tape, or on two different tape machines. I seem to recall that something like this (overlapping sections) was done on that cyclical 3-minute mix of CIFOTM with lots of verses and choruses. Until that mix showed up, we had tapes with the various sections next to each other but not always hard-edited together.

I've also suspected that the tempo-killing longish pause in the Cantina H&V at the end of "Healthy Wealthy and Often Wise" was due to plans to overlap the end of that chord with the next section; or that such fine-tuning of edits that didn't lead directly from strong beats was harder and therefore put off until later.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

ELI: HA HA HA HA!!!! Welcome to the wide world of Smile Obsessiveness!!! I've asked myself these questions over and over and over again, and have come to no definitive answers, but lemme tackle 'em anyway. Just because I like hearing the sound of my own...typing. I'll hit some of John and George's followups too.

>>> 1.Do You Like Worms - How many subscribe to the theory that the structure is "backwards" part/full bicycle rider/hawaiian chant/fade, and how many think that the 2 verse structure on the box set is correct and simply missing lead vocals?

I go both ways. As it were. John mentions above that the 2-verse structure appears in another place than the Dec. '66 comp reel, but does it? I know of one other comp reel that it appears on, and that one has incomplete sections as well -- not the full 2-verse structure by any means. I don't know if that appears anywhere other than the comp reel, and I agree it might have been a mistake to think that was an assembly. It might have been, maybe. But that makes for a damnably long song, don't it?

And why was the edit BETWEEN verses so sloppy but the edits WITHIN each verse are so clean??

(On the other hand, I'm not aware of a 2-verse edit of Cabinessence existing anywhere, either -- the version on the comp reel is one verse, so I guess that' no indication. And it also begs the question that Toby brings up a lot: what if the "barnshine" edit is a similar one-through run-through, and OMP/MOS is meant to repeat around again?)

>>> 2.The Old Master Painter - If I'm correct about the 2/28/67 rerecording of the "cantina fade" being logged as Heroes And Villains, then either this section was droppped from OMP, reprised as OMP's fade, or replaced by the earlier September He Gives Speeches or something else... what do you guys think?

Well, it wasn't replaced by Speeches...I have no idea. I'm perplexed by this conundrum constantly -- if you wanna have a complete OMP on your Smile, you have to have an incomplete H&V, and vise versa. It pisses me off.

Where does that leave OMP in late February? Well, where does that leave SMILE in late February? WAS there a Smile still in late February? Or was it going to have OMP on it? Maybe Brian just exised the tag. Or maybe not. Maybe he DID intend for it to be a reprise. Or maybe not! It's so hard to say!!!! Until Alan finds a March tape labeled "Nu Tag To OMP" or something, we'll never have an answer to these questions. Dammit.

>>> 3.Wonderful - Do we suspect a finished vocal version of the jazzy version exists? Also, were the "rock with me Henry" vocals recorded as backing vocals for the song or an insert in the manner of Smiley Smile?

No, I doubt a finished vocal version exists. And the "rock with me henry" vocals were recorded as both backing vocals and a tag. The "insert" in question appears to be the overdub of several instruments onto a pre-existing harpsichord track, though how this is an "insert" I do not know.

>>> 4.Child Is Father Of The Man - Brian's instrumental mix on Archaeology is stereo right?

Mono.

>>> Also, was this mix later than the comp reel mix?

>>> 5.I'm In Great Shape - do we think this is the "barnyard suite" referred to in Preiss' book?

I'm beginning to, yes. In fact, yeah, pretty sure. I proposed this theory a couple years ago and it seemed silly at the time though now it's starting to look like maybe it might possibly be alright.

>>> I like Jon's idea of eggs 'n grits/barroom brawl/h&v intro/barnyard, but I have a hunch the brawl and intro sections had no connection to Great Shape, other than their shared H&V ancestry.

Well, the "brawl" we don't even know about, and I have my reasons for putting "intro" in there which I'm not gonna say right now.

>>> I also don't think the January Do A Lot fits, since it's in the wrong key and ends abrubtly, meaning it must precede another section.

Agreed. And it can't precede "eggs and grits" OR "barnyard" since "Do A Lot" ends in A, and both those songs start on a G# chord, and that's a hideous half-step chromatic move which doesn't work.

>>>> What else could've been in there?

SOMETHING was tracked on Oct. 17th at a "Great Shape" vocal session at Columbia, with all 6 beach boys present. That SOMETHING isn't the version of Great Shape that Alan discovered, it's something entirely else. What? Any guesses?

I'd love to think it's a key-of-C# "Do A Lot" that sounds like "tag to part 1," but god only knows.

Would "Shape" have been a suite, like section-section-section-section, or would it have had a verse-chorus structure?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

>No question in my mind about the original placement of "False Barnyard"<

Which is as the fade to OMP, right? But wasn't the 2/28/67 rerecord of that part logged as H&V Part 2? So how does that leave OMP?

>I doubt it. But again, who knows. I still prefer the original take.<

I, too, prefer the original take of Wonderful.

>John's right, of course. Terrible mono.<

I'd still like to know if this was done before or after the short edit Buzzed Lightbeer put up a while back.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

1) I still think Worms was meant to be long, because we have two comp reels from the Brian era with the long edit on there. Who knows.

2)No question in my mind about the original placement of "False Barnyard"

3) I doubt it. But again, who knows. I still prefer the original take.

4) John's right, of course. Terrible mono.

5) Im In Great Shape is still anybody's guess even with the new finds.

I have a feeling that many of our questions will never be answered because there are no answers.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

>>1.Do You Like Worms - How many subscribe to the theory that the structure is "backwards" part/full bicycle rider/hawaiian chant/fade, and how many think that the 2 verse structure on the box set is correct and simply missing lead vocals? The long gap in between "verses" on the comp reel has led me to believe that the 2 verse structure is a mistake.

i believe the two verse theory is correct, as it seems to sit that way on the multis as well as on Brian's comp reel.

>>2.The Old Master Painter - If I'm correct about the 2/28/67 rerecording of the "cantina fade" being logged as Heroes And Villains, then either this section was droppped from OMP, reprised as OMP's fade, or replaced by the earlier September He Gives Speeches or something else... what do you guys think?

I think the tag was originally for Old Master Painter,which may have been a seque from H&V but was decided to be a song on its own.

>>3.Wonderful - Do we suspect a finished vocal version of the jazzy version exists? Also, were the "rock with me Henry" vocals recorded as backing vocals for the song or an insert in the manner of Smiley Smile?

I think the reason this version of Wonderful isn't finished is because it was flown to another tape reduction for additional vocals. Just a theory.

The "mamamama" part was intended, according to the IDs, as the song's tag as I recall.

>>4.Child Is Father Of The Man - Brian's instrumental mix on Archaeology is stereo right? So how can this be an authentic Brian mix? Also, was this mix later than the comp reel mix?

Nope. Mono. Just very bad quality.

>>.I'm In Great Shape - do we think this is the "barnyard suite" referred to in Preiss' book? If so, we are looking at a four section song, right? I like Jon's idea of eggs 'n grits/barroom brawl/h&v intro/barnyard, but I have a hunch the brawl and intro sections had no connection to Great Shape, other than their shared H&V ancestry. I also don't think the January Do A Lot fits, since it's in the wrong key and ends abrubtly, meaning it must precede another section. What else could've been in there?

I think personally the Barnyard Suite is the original version of Heroes and Villains.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Just want to get everyone's opinion on these SMiLE theories:

1.Do You Like Worms - How many subscribe to the theory that the structure is "backwards" part/full bicycle rider/hawaiian chant/fade, and how many think that the 2 verse structure on the box set is correct and simply missing lead vocals? The long gap in between "verses" on the comp reel has led me to believe that the 2 verse structure is a mistake.

2.The Old Master Painter - If I'm correct about the 2/28/67 rerecording of the "cantina fade" being logged as Heroes And Villains, then either this section was droppped from OMP, reprised as OMP's fade, or replaced by the earlier September He Gives Speeches or something else... what do you guys think?

3.Wonderful - Do we suspect a finished vocal version of the jazzy version exists? Also, were the "rock with me Henry" vocals recorded as backing vocals for the song or an insert in the manner of Smiley Smile?

4.Child Is Father Of The Man - Brian's instrumental mix on Archaeology is stereo right? So how can this be an authentic Brian mix? Also, was this mix later than the comp reel mix?

5.I'm In Great Shape - do we think this is the "barnyard suite" referred to in Preiss' book? If so, we are looking at a four section song, right? I like Jon's idea of eggs 'n grits/barroom brawl/h&v intro/barnyard, but I have a hunch the brawl and intro sections had no connection to Great Shape, other than their shared H&V ancestry. I also don't think the January Do A Lot fits, since it's in the wrong key and ends abrubtly, meaning it must precede another section. What else could've been in there?




If you have any comments on this topic, psychedelismile@yahoo.com and I will try to promptly post any interesting replies.